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Creator of FXAA says PS4 could be years ahead of PC, new Xbox may have memory bandwidth issues

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UPDATE: It appears the original blog post by Timothy Lottes has been taken down as of the time of this update (2/20/2013). Its unclear why the post has been taken down and I will try to reach out to Lottes for an explanation.

ORIGINAL STORY: Timothy Lottes is referred to as the father of FXAA in video games by many people. He knows a great deal about PC hardware and now he’s given his two cents on what he hopes to see in the next consoles from Sony and Microsoft. Lottes doesn’t have any insider information about this consoles, he discloses that right away. He’s basing these statements solely off of rumored specs.

While these rumors aren’t concrete we are seeing some particular things take shape. With so many sources reporting the same information every week it does seem like the new Xbox may feature a larger amount of DDR3 memory that has worse memory bandwidth than the smaller amount of GDDR5 memory rumored to be in the new Playstation. This could change, but all signs are pointing towards it.

Lottes seems fearful of Microsoft using a large amount of DDR3 memory because it might pose limits on memory bandwidth. On this issue he says:

“On this platform I’d be concerned with memory bandwidth. Only DDR3 for system/GPU memory pared with 32MB of “ESRAM” sounds troubling. 32MB of ESRAM is only really enough to do forward shading with MSAA using only 32-bits/pixel color with 2xMSAA at 1080p or 4xMSAA at 720p. Anything else to ESRAM would require tiling and resolves like on the Xbox360 (which would likely be a DMA copy on 720) or attempting to use the slow DDR3 as a render target.

I’d bet most titles attempting deferred shading will be stuck at 720p with only poor post process AA (like FXAA). If this GPU is pre-GCN with a serious performance gap to PS4, then this next Xbox will act like a boat anchor, dragging down the min-spec target for cross-platform next-generation games.”

Lottes seems to be less concerned about the rumored specs of the next Playstation. Most rumors have been pointing at the PS4 having less RAM than the next Xbox (4GB vs 8GB) but that may not matter if Sony uses GDDR5 memory instead of the type of memory Microsoft is rumored to be considering. It would produce better results with a better amount of memory bandwidth.

Lottes says:

“If PS4 has a real-time OS, with a libGCM style low level access to the GPU, then the PS4 1st party games will be years ahead of the PC simply because it opens up what is possible on the GPU. Note this won’t happen right away on launch, but once developers tool up for the platform, this will be the case.

As a PC guy who knows hardware to the metal, I spend most of my days in frustration knowing damn well what I could do with the hardware, but what I cannot do because Microsoft and IHVs wont provide low-level GPU access in PC APIs. One simple example, drawcalls on PC have easily 10x to 100x the overhead of a console with a libGCM style API.”

Interesting comments altogether. I continue to be surprised by the amount of memory that it seems like we’ll be getting in next-gen consoles. I didn’t expect anything over 4GB, much less the 8GB supposedly in the new Xbox.

I would be fine with 2GB-4GB of memory in these consoles personally, though I’m sure many of you want more than that. We won’t have to wait much longer as it is very likely we’ll see these new consoles before E3, going by various reports. At the worst we have to wait until June 11th to see these devices in action.

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Written by Kevin Femmel

Kevin Femmel

Kevin is the editor-in-chief of Gimme Gimme Games.

Author’s Website

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Creator of FXAA says PS4 could be years ahead of PC, new Xbox may have memory bandwidth issues, 6.2 out of 10 based on 17 ratings
  • Rob

    wow, light years ahead of the 16gb in my pc.

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    • http://twitter.com/Olly_Tei Oliver Teigaga

      Oh, is that 16GB of video RAM???

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      • Mike

        I hope not as video RAM has a higher latency and thus for general purpose use “normal” RAM is better. Video RAM has higher bandwitdh and luckily the massively parallel GPU can hide the latency but the CPU can’t. For a console something like 8GB normal RAM for the app and 8GB directly addressable video RAM would be best.

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  • John Stafford

    Yeah but DDr5 VRAM is already a standard in PC gaming GPUs, misleading title, Consoles will always drag in comparison.

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    • Louis Louis

      gddr5

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  • DeathBySquirrel

    Running a game off the GPU? Erm, small flaw, the GPU is already being used by the game’s graphics…
    The whole concept of GPU computing is that the GPU takes load off the CPU, but by doing so you’ll lose some of the graphics abiltiy…
    Basically, PC’s will still be vastly better :p

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    • John Stafford

      That’s what renders the Graphics sir, for gaming enthusiast this day and age 6 – 8 core processing is a standard if you wanna talk about the processing power but, In PCs, the actual game is GPU heavy.

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      • Falcon

        4-core processing for PC games is just now becoming the “standard”. Only BF3 I believe can even benefit from more than 4 at the moment. Skyrim was horribly optimized for PC and it took many patches to mitigate performance issues for dual core machines, and that game came out in 2011. The PS3′s 8 smp units (6 if you count the 1 reserved for OS and 1 locked out for QC purposes) + master processor are not the same as an 8 core AMD processor, not by any means. Everyone jumps on the hype of “more cores more power” when a vast majority of consumer programs/games are barely optimized for 2 threads. The PS4 will benefit from AMD’s hUMA architecture, but on a metal-to-metal comparison you can build a stronger gaming machine for almost the same price. In the quote of Lotte where he states a lot of Ifs, If the OS is real-time, if there is low-level access throughout, if this-and-that, devs will make games that kill PC counterparts, it will still take a couple years for that to happen, well in that couople of years (much like the PS3 and 360) PC parts will surpass the new consoles and you could build, for the same (launch) price, a computer that is twice as powerful for playing games. By that time (2015) AMD will be rolling out it’s hUMA system for PC users on a large scale, and any benefit the PS4 has will disappear.

        Don’t waste your money, build a PC.

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        • Falcon

          And to add to this, coming from the guy who made FXAA (a waste of post-processing graphics resources which subjectively can make your game look worse, Thanks!), I wouldn’t take anything he says at face value.

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    • Thomas McBrearty

      Yer coming from one of the creators of ‘FXAA’ I think I’ll take his word over yours..no offence

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  • El Chupacabra

    If it can be done on a PS4, then it will be done x100 better on PC

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    • Duc PC-QB

      with what OS ? You know that Window is not allowed for low level PCAPI which dragged 50% performance

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      • Kamille

        it’s obvious he just read the tittle and went directly to write an ignorant comment.

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        • That guy

          Obviously you have never owned a pc worth having.

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          • Eric S

            Obv you don’t understand the technology in the PS3 is completely different from what is used in PC’s. It’s called supercomputer technology. Look it up.

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          • Shawn Nickels

            You don’t understand clearly. Parts that make consoles are essentially old pc parts slightly changed for console use.

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          • zack_mckraken

            Oh, please enlighten us about the term: “supercomputer”. Is it anything like “blast processing”? Please do look it up Eric.

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  • SynTech

    Complete morons! That is almost as dumb as when Microsoft said that the next XBox would render Avatar like graphics and that computers could not even do that.

    For one, computers CAN do that, secondly, in order for you to create a system that can out perform computers you must create completely new hardware which would make it too expensive and negate the whole reason for buying a console.

    Consoles have an edge over PC due to the fact that Devs can program to match hardware where as programing for PCs Devs must program for a variate of hardware types, driveres, ect. However, PCs are becoming more standardized and with upcoming projects like Steam Box, console makers are going to be feeling the pressure and it will lead to more %100 BS comments like the ones from Microsoft and Sony.

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  • WoWed

    I was half expecting to see a Sony Ad at the bottom of this article, tbh

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    • gimmegimmekevin

      Why? I tried to stay neutral on Tim Lottes comments for the most part. Was there something I said in particular that you didn’t like? Thanks for reading WoWed

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    • Mike

      Why?
      Timothys article was not about Sony and not about the hardware itself. It was just about APIs and low-level access to GPUs. As you can see here, no-one outside of the graphics community did get it so I guess this reactions were a reason to take the blogpost down…

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  • http://www.facebook.com/smileyofchaos Cody Taylor

    The thing about consoles is that they can only cost so much. But with computers you can buy parts separately and spend upwards of $3000 making a machine so powerful it could whoop the PS4 and 720 even if they teamed up against it. I love my PS3 but seriously…consoles will always be behind computers in terms of potential.

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    • gimmegimmekevin

      100% agree.

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    • Viscount

      $3000???? Don’t pull an outrageous number out of your tiny ass.

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      • http://www.facebook.com/smileyofchaos Cody Taylor

        You must have never built a high-end PC before. I have, and if you get a good case and motherboard it’s insane how much stuff you can cram into it. The last PC I built was for me and it cost a little over $3,000, and I admit I put a bit more in than what was really needed. But if you really go overkill (32GB+ RAM, SLI/Crossfire with $500+ GPUs, a PSU to support such craziness) the price can skyrocket well past that and can even breach the $5000-$6000 mark. Which is why consoles will never beat PCs.

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        • gimmegimmekevin

          Wow. That is a PC setup I’m very, very envious of Cody!

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        • Smitty

          It is even easier than that to go crazy with the cost than you think.

          A couple years ago, I spec’ed out a list for a machine built around dual Ares cards and hit close to $8k in about 5 minutes. From there, It isn’t that much of a stretch to get up into the 10-12k range.

          Around the same time for fun, I ratcheted the crazy to 11 and dipped into high performance enterprise grade hardware with the only rules that it still fit on a desk and run on house current. Total cost was 45k and you needed to rewire the house to supply four outlets on separate circuits.

          Bottom line is PC’s cost as much as you want them to.

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        • Amr_Lopin

          I agree, id say 2000$ would make a fairly powerful one without spending crazy on any parts :)

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      • http://www.facebook.com/dontfeedthecode Tim Sheehan

        Outrageous? My video card alone cost over $1000 (GTX690).

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        • clark menze

          my bro has got 3 of those O-O

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          • Taha

            Probably, 2 of them will be on his PC and one on his?

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          • clark menze

            2way sli and the other is dedicated to physx apparently

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      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100004209400656 Amy Walker

        Read what he said. Most good PCs are around $600-800, but they have the potential to go up far past 3,000 if one desires. Doing so is pretty retarded and I know of no one who does it. PCs cost a lot less than consoles if you’re only looking to match their performance, but the thing is Sony and Microsoft subsidized the hell out of the consoles to hold down their price so they could sell more. The 360 for example was 900 dollars per unit to make, yet they sold it for 400. They lost a good bit for each console sale made, but more than made up for it in licensing fees.

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    • Tarek El-Ghazaly

      That “potential” doesn’t mean anything if there are no games to make use of it. What we’ve seen during the last generation are game companies catering to the lowest common denominator, and that was the X360, with few better looking exclusives popping out for PS3 and PC. It’s a fact that PC’s will alwaysbe able to produce way better graphics, but that doesn’t mean developers will cater to those high-end PCs with games that unlock every ounce of that potential.

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    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=578850320 Kyle Andrew James Bacon

      Wouldnt even need to get the highest of the highest to do so. I think its going to be a while till a console has more then 8-16GB of ram…But yes consoles WILL always be behind PCs :)

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  • NeverInALifeTime

    The topic inside this article is the most stupid thing I ever heard. No current or future generation console gaming system will ever surpass the PC. The only thing that holds PC back, is the crappy ports we get that the game releases on all 3 systems.

    When a company that makes games for both the PC and console, and does not port over anything, like making two games the same for both things, and then the PS4 looks better, then I will crap bricks.

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    • gimmegimmekevin

      Yea, that particular comment by Timothy Lottes is a bit silly.

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  • Duc PC-QB

    You cant compare PS4 , 720 with high end PC or super computer. Since those PC dont have limited budget.

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  • Hunk

    I NEED THE POWER OF THE SUN!!!

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  • Phill Asheeo

    Silly pre ps4 propaganda. Sony and MS are done, they will never be able to compete with PC, they have had a decade or more to try. I’m not a PC racist but I might as well be! PC= innovation; Console= static never changing $70 “brand” name garbage. :)

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  • Thomas McBrearty

    Lol PC fanboys below are already throwing a fit, typical…
    You tell them their wrong and they switch to defence mode

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  • renan

    even if its true how would the companies create different games for ps4 and other to xbox 720 and pc

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    • Eastham

      Well, there are some developers that do this because they have integrity and care about their games working well. For instance, CD Projekt Red used a modified engine (Red Engine 2) for the release of The Witcher 2 on the Xbox 360 to ensure that it would run as well as possible on the console. In my opinion, and some would even argue objectively speaking, the game has more issues with texture loading (lots of pop in) than on PC, but it would have been worse if they had just slapped Red Engine Witcher 2 on DVDs and expected it to just work.

      Essentially, most developers are too lazy or genuinely just don’t care about both types of consumers getting an optimally functioning product, but there are a few who do.

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  • Anon

    Only time will tell at this point. Everything being said is based off rumored specs and what Lottes hopes to see in the next gen consoles (none of it confirmed AFAIK). He does have a point though that hardware only matters if software can utilize it effectively.

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  • rvernon

    I enjoy playing games in a window while cruising the web in another. Or emailing. Or…insert multi-task here. Comparing consoles to PC’s is a bit ludicrous. I wish they would stop. Compare the new xbox to the PS4, compare them both to their ancestors. But leave the PC workhorse out of it.

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  • Richter Belmont

    I care wether the games are good not, and since I’m luckily no graphic whore, I don’t really care if the PC or PS4 is better.

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  • Shawn Nickels

    Years ahead of pc? I read, stop reading here. Sony fanboy “article” ahead.

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    • gimmegimmekevin

      Well, we’re just posting what Tim Lottes said, his personal opinion. That was a fairly odd statement for Lottes to make.

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  • Shawn Nickels

    Looking through the comments at the sony fan-boys defending this article claiming that console are better than pc’s? You’re all stupid.

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  • Blob

    As much as I am aware that a high end PC is better than any console, PC elitists are just as annoying or even more annoying than console fanboys. People who play consoles enjoy them; people who play PC enjoy it. Everybody has fun!

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  • http://www.facebook.com/iDancethroughshadoWs Chris Ezell

    ahead of 360 maybe. ahead of pc? *rolls on the floor and laughs epically for hours* *wipes away tears looks at the screen and starts to laugh all over* wow. you are a total moron for uttering that

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  • DR1V3R

    Why is everybody worried about pc it sux the only reason why nerds like the pc is to mod or hack come on get a real gaming system and not the ps3 i am talking about they suck to.

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  • Ailodierap

    While I truly believe that the PS4 will be leaps and bounds ahead of the Xbox 720, there is no way it will be ahead of the PC. I don’t even need to explain why… just read pretty much every other comment on this article.

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  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=578850320 Kyle Andrew James Bacon

    Well they make games on PC’s right…so how would they be able to make anything for the PS4 if it could do so much better. It might be really really good at the time of release…but PC is always going to be on top and even if they have something a bit quicker then a PC (such as a part) it wont be long till 1.It can be used in a PC or 2.It wont last long

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  • http://www.ironhammers.org/ Bobby Gooding

    Anyone know what’s happened to the original blog post from Lottes? The link in the article says “post not found”, and I can’t find it on his blog at all.

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    • gimmegimmekevin

      I just noticed that too. He may have deleted the post or perhaps its a behind the scenes issue. I’ll keep looking into it.

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  • Mike

    8GB isn’t much, only 4 would be a joke – my phone has 2GB…

    Consoles are very quickly memory limited, so 16GB would be the minimum to keep pace with PCs over the next years.

    BTW: Timothys article was about APIs, not hardware. The HW of the PS4 will be in the scale of a mid-level PC but the low-level API (if it will be similarly low-level as with the PS3) will make up for that.

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  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000468343867 Supremo Lagarto

    This author has no idea what he is talking about. The GPUs being proposed for the next XBOX and PlayStation are still obsolete by PC standards. He also doesn’t understand ANYTHING about the way memory actually works.

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    • gimmegimmekevin

      Some of Tim Lottes comments are pretty out there indeed.

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  • plevel

    consoles are pure shit ruining the games for all pc users

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  • Dubblife

    You cant compare PCs to console games fairly:

    PC’s are “personal computers”, and built to suit the owner’s lifestyle. PC’s are built to do complex calculations, run programs and applications, and build & design programs. Consoles are built as-is and made to work right out of the box as a “gaming only” platform.

    Why argue about Lamorginis vs Ferraris? Stop arguing over stupid things and go back to mom’s basement and get some headshots while eating hot cheetoes like we’re suppossed to be.

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  • Michael DeVore

    My GOD fix your article. DDR5 does not exist. It’s DDR3 vs GDDR5. That G at the beginning is important. It’s a completely different spec. GDDR memory has higher latency and many smaller 32 bit channels to allow a Graphics processor access to multiple channels. DDR3 has lower latency and usually 2 nice big 64bit channel. You can make decent arguments for using ether however GDDR memory will suck if you use it as system memory on your Desktop since most applications need low latency high bandwidth, but games utilize more parallelism so they can take advantage of the many channels but high latency. The ideal situation would be using Both DDR3 and GDDR5, but that’s not really possible on the APU Sony’s getting from AMD.

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    • gimmegimmekevin

      Sorry for the typo.

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  • trust me

    i looked at the title of this story… and laughed.. i dont think i have been told a better joke in years. for as long as a console developes, software and hardware on a pc is always improving beyond competition with a tiny console. a pc is a monster of artificial intelligence designed to work across much more of a basis than simple entertainment. its silly considering that the PS4′s software was made on a pc and they are saying it now surpasses a pc? the ery platform it was created on? ha.

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    • gimmegimmekevin

      As I’ve said before Tim Lottes comments are pretty odd.

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  • http://twitter.com/Haruhi_Ouran Midori Fujioka

    Then turned out that PS4 has 8GB.

    WIth Nintendo NES and SNES were great. Their third console (N64) had good games, but lost against the competition. With Sony PS and PS2 were great. Their third console (PS3) had good games, but lost against the competition. I just wonder… XBOX and 360 were great. But I just wonder about the 720…

    Saturn also was SEGA’s worst, and it was also their third console…

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  • http://www.facebook.com/dtonshiba Dalton Shiba

    i dont care how much better pcs are. Consoles are just my way cant stand gaming on pcs except my weak wc3

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  • justin

    What the fuck are these guys talking about? Cant they pretend that not everyone can speak tech-nerd rocket science lingo?

    Whats a OS? Whats a libGCM? whats a GPU, API, ESRAM, 4xMSAA?

    The only ones who can understand those hieroglyphs are few. Video games are mostly for kids and young adult (even though there are allot of games not for the faint of heart) what i’m saying is. Talk in a manner in which normal people can understand, use english not Steven Hawking english.

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    • http://www.facebook.com/PieAll Chris Pie All

      Umm all that stuff is covered in high school tech courses the first of which is mandatory. I think you’re just ignorant if you really wanted to know you’d google it.

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  • MadBanana

    To put it in a simple form, who gives a fuck when u can own them all, rage all you want fanboys.

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  • Smitty

    “If PS4 has a real-time OS, with a libGCM style low level access to the GPU, then the PS4 1st party games will be years ahead of the PC simply because it opens up what is possible on the GPU. Note this won’t happen right away on launch, but once developers tool up for the platform, this will be the case”

    This arrogantly assumes that PC stays stagnant at the level it is when PS4 launched and assumes that it will be able to pass PC up.

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  • 3Digital

    The question is:

    “Would you still play on consoles if exclusives were available to PC e.g. Metal Gear, Mortal Kombat, Twisted Metal, Killzone, Resistance, Uncharted, Ratchet & Clank, Red Dead Redemption?…..”I guess not!… that’s the whole point isn’t it?… you know, games!.

    We all know they will look and perform better on PC, if you know how to set up your rig properly + ENCLOSED SYSTEMS HAVE AN EXPIRATION DATE, ALWAYS! and technology grows in EXPONENTIAL = faster growth of tech. every year.

    It will come a time [soon] that making a console it’s not possible anymore, becuz by the next year the computing and hardware will double by 10 fold. It’s INEVITABLE!.

    That’s reality!, by yours truly: a PC-Tech guy (a real PC-Tech guy)

    PS: I wonder why the odd and contradictory [by career wise] opinion by Timothy Lottes though, he knows better than that!. I say: I smell fish.

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  • http://www.facebook.com/PieAll Chris Pie All

    PS4 will never surpass PC Since you can always get the same, more or even better specs for PC and you can’t do that with Consoles. My graphics card cost me more than my PS3 so how could they put a more expensive one in a console if the price wouldn’t be enough to cover a top end GPU and CPU? Not even mentioning a motherboard to support it all.

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    • http://www.facebook.com/BanzaiFTW Banzaiftw Ramos

      Agree,and with the option to upgrade the hardware, consoles like PS4 and XBOX 720 will be outdated real fast.Even I’m a Pc gamer I still gonna buy the PS4 for the sake of final fantasy -.-

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  • Emil Engh

    He is also not the creator of FXAA, but the amazing TXAA featured on the GeForce 600 Kepler series, which eliminates all temporal and edge-based aliasing :)

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  • Guy

    Well, it’s April now and its been confirmed that the PS4 will have the same processing power as a current $250 video card, and AMD just released a high end card that is 4 times more powerful. Its also been confirmed that the PS4 isn’t coming out till the holidays. When given the technology curve, unless the PS4 costs 200 bucks on release, expect an affordable laptop to stomp it into the ground. GG Tim.

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  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100004209400656 Amy Walker

    Anyways, consoles have been saying they will get better hardware than high end PCs each time a new generation is released, and have never came close when the time comes for launch. It pains me to see them still on the market, console users pay so much more money in the long-run just because they don’t bother to learn how computers work.

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